Jared Tendler's Mental Game Forum

redline improvement

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5:37 pm
June 6, 2010

zolih

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Hi Jared!

My question is related to the nonsd winning.

I had a very bad result in it so because of this I made a ton a research regarding this problem. And finally I started to improve both of my redline and winrate. So I played 10k hand without looking at the redline and I was confident about my play, I made very good moves, picked up pots right and there. than I checked my line. it was the same as before my improvement.

wtf….

I checked in my HM and I found the secret: My play was generally good at the first half of the sessions!! and only at the first half. I play 4table 2hour/session. and I found out that my redline was above 0 in the first hour almost always. and at the rest of the session my old game style came back and started to lose again at nonshowdown. The difference between my stats (vpip,pfr, AQ%..etc) of the 1st and 2nd half of the sessions was high too. ie: AQ39% vs AQ28% lol.

Why is that what do you think? its because of psychological reason?

I talked with one my friends about this problem and we realized that maybe at the beginning of the sessions I am much more motivated and zealous. And at the rest of the session I go in a pullback mode.

I played since a new session and I monitored myself but – wow- the same thing happened. and I am just didnt even realized, only at the end of the session.

what is your opinion? what can i do about it?

thanks!

8:46 am
June 9, 2010

Alobar

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Post edited 8:47 am – June 9, 2010 by Alobar

Stop worrying about your redline. Just focus on making the best EV decision you can in each spot and let the redline do whatever it wants. Focusing on it as in indicator of your play is a mistake IMO. Ive had plenty of sessions where my redline drops like a brick, but I know I played excellent the entire session, its just I got into lots of spots were say bet/folding the turn was the best play. Or because my opponents made good second best hands so my rivers bets that normally would get folded to get called, etc. If you looked at your play and felt it was good, then thats all that matters, not what your redline ended up doing.

The belief that a strong redline is what you need, is nothing more than ego at work. For the same reasons that people make fun of 18/14 "nits" regardless of how much the win. Playing more hands is considered "sexier" and means you are a "better" player. If you showed most people a graph of a player who won at 4ptbb/100 with a redline that was postive, and showed them a graph of a 5ptbb/100 player whos redline decended the whole way, theyd prolly tell you the 4ptbb/100 player was better at poker and theyd rather be him. Just go read BBV on 2+2, there are countless people who excitedly post that they fixed their redline at 5NL and post thier breakeven redline graph, when without a doubt the best stratedgy at limits that small is to aim for showdown winnings.

Anyway, I kinda went off on a tangent, but I read your problem as not a problem with redline but as a problem with not playing your A game across your entire session. Maybe your sessions are too long. Instead of playing a 2 hours session, start out with an hour session, then take a small break and come back and play another session. And slowly work on increasing the time that you can play a session with 100% focus and attention.

Or is it less a problem of focus and more of a problem becoming timid over time? Do you find yourself not wanting to risk a big bluff even if you feel its the best play because you dont want to be wrong and lose because you are up for the session or cuz you are down and dont want to go down even more?

9:12 am
June 14, 2010

Jared

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The most interesting thing that you said here was that you were able to do it successfully in the first hour – but then slipped back into old habits the second hour.

The solution here isn't a psychological one, it's purely a training one. The simple answer is that in order for you to accurately apply the new strategy you have to have a lot of motivation or zeal as your friend said. It is that energy which allows you to access this new knowledge. Knowledge that may be very clear to you away from the table is not nearly so when playing.

My advice is to change up 1) how you're thinking about this improvement, 2) have some fun playing around training it.

1) You just have to see this as a transfer of context – where you're transfering what you know away from the table so you can apply it to playing. Those are two VERY VERY different places. Away from the table you have much more time to think, and it doesn't really matter – and that lack of pressure is massive – even if it doesn't feel like there's pressure when you play, its very subtle.

2) Try play 2 tables in the second hour, and really work hard to focus on apply this new knowledge. If you can't do that, try playing 3 tables first hour and then 2 tables second hour or 4 and then 1. There's some combination that will work, and then over time as your getting good at it, then you can increase table to eventually be able to play 4 tables for 2hours as you want it to be.

This can be a bit confusing, does it make sense?

8:14 am
August 16, 2010

zolih

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Hi!

yeah helped.

I tried the second one, cutting down tables in the 2nd hour at seems working.

thanks.

11:16 am
August 18, 2010

Jared